I've read a couple of interesting blogs this morning, both of which address the problems of morality in an athiest world, as opposed to a Christian world. The first, titled "Deconstructing the Purpose Driven Life - Chapter 23" is by The Athiest Missionary
The athiest missionary poses the question what would Jesus do in two highly charged moral dilemmas: 1) Sophie's choice — choose one or the other of two children to die, or they both will be killed; 2) Captain's choice — a storm is on the horizon, the lifeboat is overloaded, choose the people to be tossed overboard to certain death so that some might survive. His conclusion is that an athiest would, after careful moral examination arrive at the choice of the lesser of two evils, allowing some to survive the ordeal. He suggests Jesus would be more concerned with saving souls than flesh-and-blood lives.
One commenter (jdp) suggests in the case of the Captain's choice that Jesus would toss the Christians overboard, since their place in heaven is already assured, while there is hope for the pagans that they might still have their souls saved during the course of continued life. Another (dzyns) says Jesus would cheat and calm the storm, and thus avoid the moral dilemma altogether, which I suspect, most Christians would find satisfactory, and one to which they would not question the possibility within the realms of the supernatural.
I say the whole question of the Sophie's / the Captain's (Jesus') choice is moot. If there are true Christians aboard the lifeboat, they would never permit Jesus to be placed in such a position to have to make the choice. As true Christians, according to Rick Warren, the author of The Purpose Driven Life, they should be making individual choices based on thinking of others with love and compassion in imitation of Christ (living out the 'purpose driven life'), or alternatively, they could follow their God's previously given laws. Either choice would be morallly correct. They would as compassionate, already-saved Christians choose for themselves self-sacrifice and jump overboard in order that Jesus might work with the pagans to save their souls. Or, they could follow older scripture literally, and follow God the Father's direction, which would be to kill all the heathens, leaving no man, woman or child amongst them alive. After all, as Sam Harris makes the point in his book The End of Faith, a religious world has no place for heathens under any circumstances, no matter Jesus' teachings. Quite the dichotomy for an atheist, but a win-win situation for a Christian who has taken Jesus as his personal saviour and reads and practices his bible's scriptures faithfully and literally.
The bible and Warren's lessons would almost have us believe the question of moral dilemma has vanished, if one will only accept Jesus into one's life, applying the scriptures to direct one's life, that is, to kill them all, or save the lost souls by sacrificing oneself, thus rendering, as I said above, the fact of Jesus having to choose quite moot. The same thinking can be applied to Sophie's choice.
The second blog, title "The New Atheist Dream Come True: Let's Pretend that Religion, and Religious Taboos, Have Vanished from the Earth, Then Ask Ourselves "Whence the Future of Eugenic Research?"", is based on that tired old Christian arrogance that without Christianity, there would be no morality, much of which (if not all) comes down to us from the laws and scriptures of a Christian god and manifest themselves in the form of what she calls 'taboos'. This blog is located at Prometheus Unbound
Before Christians wrote down their God's will and proceded to impose their version of saving souls on their neighbours, the world and it's people were evil, had no morality to speak of, and it was only God's compassion and love that taught human beings to be just and moral. That was a problem for St. Patrick and his monks in trying to convert the Celts in Ireland. They posed the question if they accepted Jesus and God through baptism and conversion, their ancestors would be left in a vacuum of hell and immorality. But I digress.
Okay, back to the question of Christian morality. It is based upon the premise of original sin, which is another whole ball of wax, as they say. In this particular blog, Tafarella is concerned with the potentially horrific abuses of eugenics, the practice of 'tinkering with the human genome to make better, smarter, faster people', to use her words. She implies that without Christianity's taboos, eugenics would run amok.
She uses the lack of McDonald's Fast Food chain's presence in India as an analogy. I don't believe McDonald's has secret labs practicing genetic manipulation for their food to make it fattier, saltier or more irresistible to the hungry patron, so her analogy to McDonald's because of India's predominent religious taboos, as opposed to China, or the United States, its native land, is just plain silly.
Tafarella has forgotten that many genetics research projects are driven by one of two things: 1) profit; 2) the hope of finding cures to insidious and pervasive birth defects and diseases, which may or may not be tied to profit. The United States, home to many industries, multi- and trans-national companies, is the most profit-driven economy the world has ever known. Unless she is against a profit motivated economy, she seems to put herself in conflict with herself. If she supports a healthy profit-making economy, then she needs to rethink her position on eugenics, taboos or not.
Secondly, she seems to forget all the advances made by research in the fields of medicine and science in eugenics, the human genome and so many other areas of investigation. Would Santi have a child die or suffer life-long debilitation because her taboos would prevent the development of in-vitro surgeries, or genetic therapies, a sort of 'Sophie's choice'?
Tafarella's interpretation of Christian taboos presents the world in a simple black and white, 2-dimensional state, 'you're either with us or agin us'. No grey areas permitted here, please. But that's the problem, isn't it? The real world is multi-dimensional, not all good, not all bad, filled with shadows and bright spots, and myriad shades of grey.
I supect that there are very few moderates in all religions, agnostics, or atheists, who would want eugenics to take the direction of 'The Boys from Brazil', to develop some sort of perfect superhuman speciman, preferably white and male, as a soldier, or a leader of the free world. She proposes that atheists lack the ability to restrict the investigation and application of eugenics if it appears harmful. Morality and ethics begin and end with Christianity and its taboos in her worldview.
Does Tafarella wear makeup? Then she endorses eugenics. Does she purchase fresh produce or pre-packaged food stuffs, bread, milk? She supports eugenics. Are there any wood products in her home, furniture for example, or a conventional stud-structure shell? Eugenics again. What kind of clothes does she wear? Does she take her children to see a medical professional when they are ill? Hardly the stuff of black ops, but she suggests we are foolish if we belive there isn't such a thing in China or elsewhere. Why not do the Christian thing and finger the United States too? After all, only Christians are equipped with the appropriate taboos to discover and root out such evil, and that evil will be defined according to Christian doctrine, since there isn't any other in her lovely world.
By why not resolve the issue of eugentics altogether? Let's kill all those nasty eugenics researchers, they can't possibly be Christians can they? After all, its not taboo to kill the heathens, to mutilate them, rape their daughters, impale their infants, plunder or burn or salt their crops, annihilate their livestock and raze their cities. The bible tells us so, and it is, after all, God's word.
While we're at it, why not get rid of Blacks, Asians, women, aboriginals, and anybody else that doesn't fit the bible's white male 'in-god's-image' human being. Or at the very least, let's enslave them all so they can do the dirty work, leaving us to achieve our heavenly goals. None of those mentioned, and I'm sure millions of others, could possibly know anything about taboos or Christian morals and ethics, since by biblical definition (with a little help from organized religion) they are heathens without souls, and apparently, not worth saving.
I get very annoyed, but more importantly, concerned about the justifications those of the Christian right believe they have to impose themselves and their will upon the rest of us. The world of the bible can be read as a sexist, racial, brutal, war-mongering heirarchy with a side-dish of love thy neighbout and respect thy parents, thou shalt not kill (exceptions noted elsewhere) who believe they are morally justified to do just about anything they please, as long as it's in God's name. They would destroy science, disgard the poor and ill, and punish anyone who opposes them in the most horrific way, as these actions and attitudes are not taboo in this worldview of a perfect Christian right world. And in fact, they have done all of these things, along with other orthodox organized religious extremists, practicing their merry 'ends justify the means' to impose their God's will on everyone. They have done and continue to, reduce the world to rubble, piling bodies into mass graves and consigning them to hell, the one of their making.
Pretty frightening, isn't it? If anything, we are desparately in need of fewer Christian 'taboos', and more honesty, reality, compassion and debate, which if you adopt a more rational, reality-based attitude, allows the discovery that most people are all of these things by nature. Oh, I know there are those who are psychopaths, racists, narcissists, driven by avarice, etc., but these are the exceptions, the minority in a world which has seen billions of decent moral human beings live out their lives as honest, fruitful members of their communities, and most of them, by the way, without the Christian right and their set of taboos.
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Moderates vs Extremeists
Wendy,
The problems you mention with Christianity, in my opinion, only happen when extremists are in power. I would further say that this would apply to all extremists, not just the Christians.
I much prefer living in a moderate Judeo-Christian country like Canada than any extremist country I can think of no matter what the religion or non-religion. It is not the religion, or lack of religion, that scares me. It is the extremists. Atheist extremist nations have been responsible for at least as many deaths as religious extremists. I am not saying anything against any religion or atheism. Extremism is the problem.
I do consider myself a Christian, but as a "good Christian”, I feel it's my duty to call a spade a spade when any extremist "fill in the blank" decides that everyone should follow their rules. Your rules are for your people and no one else. If your people are willing to consent to those rules then that is their right. I guess what I'm saying what agreements or arrangements that are made between consenting adults is no one’s business and has nothing to do with what my morals or anyone else's are.
If you wish to get back to your boat analogy, my morals would be to do whatever it takes to ensure the safety of my own children first. After that my own moral code would have me volunteering to go for "the final swim", but after that, I see no way I could possibly make that decision for anyone else, except maybe to lead by example and hope that there are enough others with the moral fortitude to step up and volunteer also.
Respectfully,
David.
Well Said
I agree, it is the extremists that are most dangerous in any form. These particular articles concerned the Christian faith, but no religion is exempt when it becomes extreme. I have great faith in human nature, that most of us are, or try to be compassionate, loving and tolerant.
As for moral dilemmas, it is hard to predict how people will react when faced with real-life situations, but yes, children are most precious and we should be willing as parents, and as communities, to do our best by them --- Wen
Thanks
Wendy, (do you prefer Wen or Wendy?)
Thanks for a wonderful post.
I've been peeking at your stuff for a couple of weeks and I really like your hard-line middle attitude. So very Zen.
I was raised Catholic. I think its safe to say I know as much as anyone about being Catholic and now, that I'm all growed-up, I can honestly say I see the positive in the religion as well as the negative.
I find it amazing that anyone would think that people of no faith lack morals because some of the nicest, most moral and good natured people I have met have been atheist or agnostic. People of no faith have to consciously choose to be moral. I say kudos to them.
One thing I've noticed about people who like to come up with examples as you cite in your post (Sophie's choice, Captain's choice) is that these examples almost invariably are derived for the purpose of winning an argument. Those sorts of examples are meaningless. Until one faces such a hard choice, one has no idea what one will do. Period. And once one has made such a decision, one quickly realizes its not about morality, its about instinct. There is no time to contemplate, only time to act.
Your post touches on one of my self found life themes: "The mind is a justification engine."
The extremist types have a strong need to justify their thoughts, feelings, and actions, and so derive what ever "story" is necessary to to go on believing what they believe and doing what they do. I stopped analyzing them shortly after I stopped being one of them. When I see the hypocrisy of these folks I feel compassionate because I see myself in them. I was that ignorant not so long ago. I'm not ashamed to admit it because as I see it, its all part of the process of growing into a healthy balanced person.
However, it seems that people use the justification engine in their head to continue to deny the lessons which reality offers to open their minds and hearts to a simple truth: we're all different and there is no single religion, way of life, or way of being that can satisfy us all.
In my opinion the healthiest of attitudes celebrates our uniqueness, instead of shunning or despising our differences.
Sorry if I popped up on my soap box.
Thanks again.
Brian
Hello Brian, Ah, the middle
Hello Brian,
Ah, the middle road, as I learned in reading of the Buddha, is the ideal we should all strive for. But it is hard isn't it?
My hubby and I watch from a Canadian perspective the events as they are unfolding in the US and both of us get very upset every time the extremists take over the current healthcare debate. It leaves the impression that there are no middle-roaders, those who would debate the pros and cons, which we know of course is untrue, that the majority of Americans want some kind of reasonable change and just don't seem to be able to get their voices heard above the shouting.
I love your concept that the mind is a justification engine. You see, I learn something new every day --- how many times have my thoughts taken me in just such a direction, justifying this choice or those words. Now I will be more aware of those thoughts, and hopefully can understand them better.
The source for the moral 'choices' is cited as:
"[t]he above noted scenarios are taken from an article entitled Moral Dilemmas by philosopher R.M. Sainsbury" and I'm quoting from the athiest missionary's blog. It re-enforces your statement that these are arbitrary arguments manifested to prove or win points.
I agree, one really won't know until faced with some sort of tough choice. I think David, in the comment above, who says he would choose his children is talking from instinct, as I believe most parents would always put their children first. At least, I hope they would.
As far as my personal journey right now, I am fascinated by opinions from all walks of life, and have been reading books by a number of different authors, Sam Harris, Father Rose, Murray Bookchin, Tom Harper, a number of Buddhist monks and authors, Nietzsche, and including a very angry manifesto by a Canadian Indian (that was one of the hardest books to read) I guess that makes me an agnostic leaning towards atheism, although I was raised in a very casual Protestant family. I remember questioning lessons even as a young child.
The problem with atheism is that it leaves one with a dreadful void where faith should be. For myself, I believe that all human beings are very spiritual, and need purpose and expression for that spirit. Nietzsche struggled with the problem --- seems to have discovered some of the principles of Buddhism, but I don't think he was equipped to take it far enough to fill his own void.
I have known a number of people in my lifetime who took their faith very seriously, and truly practiced it in their daily lives --- I learned from them that the strengths they drew from their beliefs was an aura which lent strength freely to everyone whose lives they touched. It breaks my heart to see so much agony and tragedy created by the extremists when there is so much more to life than forcing everyone to march to the same songs of belief and spirit, lifestyle and worldview. Our differences are, like you said, so very worth celebrating.
I usually go by Wen. I found out in one of those name books that Wendy means 'highbrow' which I hope doesn't mean snotty. I've always wondered if we grow into our names, or they grow into us?
Take care. Hope you enjoying all the sky shows out there. I completely forgot about the Pleiades this year, shame on me. Now I'll have to wait until December.
--- Wen
Wendy -- Created for Peter Pan
I read that J.M. Barrie created the name Wendy for his character in Peter Pan.
She is a great character. Its a great name.
Update: I just realized why he named her that!
He called her "When-dy" because she was the present moment.
names
Now that's encouraging (I've always wanted to fly without wings lol)