Maybe it's my fault. I think I write pretty clearly, but perhaps I don't. In the last few days, ever since I counseled both excitement at the post-election possibilities for progressive activism, and caution at the risk of over-exuberance, it seems as though some on the left with a heavy investment in their self-righteous sense of radicalism have allowed their personal hatred of all things Democrat and all-things-mainstream-politics to get in the way of deciphering words on a page.
So although I made it very clear that Obama's election by itself would change very little, and that it was up to us to steer Obama's supporters into progressive activism, to hear some tell it, I am a starry-eyed bourgeois liberal who refuses to see the inherent evil of Barack Obama. Whatever. I haven't the time or inclination to play a game of who's the bigger radical with some of these folks: people who have told me that rather than voting, voluntary dumpster-diving is a revolutionary act (or who miss how whites who do it are abusing their privilege, since folks of color who do that shit are prosecuted for trespassing), or who still use words like bourgeois, and yet can't understand why regular folks can't figure out what the hell they're talking about.
Anyway, I never suggested that Obama was likely to usher in much in the way of progressive reforms or changes. I do believe he will be nominally liberal, and far preferable to McCain/Palin. But ultimately, I am of the opinion that he (as with any president) will only move left if forced to do so. That work is ours to do, but instead of reaching out and speaking to Obama supporters in a way that recognizes their exuberance, honors it, and tries to move them into more productive activity than mere electoral campaigning, these folks would prefer to mock them, suggest their stupidity, and call them names, such as "listless hipsters" (my favorite), "cultists," "Obamaniacs," "Limousine LIberals," or "shills" for the system. Good move: insult millions of people who--like it or not--have been inspired by Obama, and expect them to join your movement for real social transformation. Good luck with that. Just because we on the left haven't been able to inspire much lately is no reason to hate on those who have, just because they aren't sufficiently down with our view of the world.
Sometimes those who have harshly condemned my position on this matter prove themselves to be rank hypocrites as well. So, for instance, consider writer and activist Paul Street, who has said my criticism of those who see no difference between McCain and Obama is evidence of my being "increasingly unglued." This, coming from a guy who four years ago penned a piece in which he warned the left about making arguments of equivalence between Bush and Kerry. In other words, in 2004, Paul Street thought the left should recognize the real differences between the two parties, even though he (and I) both know those differences are not large enough, but apparently that recognition is no longer valuable. Street even suggested back then that the reason the left should be careful about equivalizing the two candidates in 2004 was because doing so would royally piss off black folks, who were quite clear that there was a difference. Oh, but acting like there is no difference between McCain and the black guy should play well with them Paul. Thanks for that clarification. Moving on.
In my previous pieces I made the point that just as JFK was center-right in orientation, and yet, young people inspired by him moved much further to the left over the next fifteen years and made a huge difference in this nation, so too could that happen now. No one who has criticized my previous pieces has seen fit to respond to that. Because they can't. It is historically inarguable and so they must ignore it. Rather, they point out that when Bill Clinton was president the left didn't sufficiently pressure him to do very much (and even caved on some things). While this is true, they ignore both the possibility that we may have learned something from that sorry capitulation, and that Obama is far more like JFK in his effect on the public than he is like Clinton. Clinton never inspired this much enthusiasm, which is likely why he seemed so bitter on the campaign trail, even on those few occasions when he managed to say nice things about Barack Obama. He knows the difference quite well, apparently, and that's why he's angry.
More to the point, I find this line of argument--that the liberals and progressives will just fold up like a cheap tent in the face of Obama because he promises "change"--to be not only condescending but problematic in terms of where it leads us. If that position is followed to its logical conclusion, one would then have to support only the most right-wing, even fascist forces for president, just on the hope that the obvious clarity of their pernicious plans would "wake up" the masses, as opposed to how they will be lulled to sleep by a well-spoken liberal. In other words, this thinking leads to the classically stupid and venal position that things have to get worse before they get better, and that any reformism is bad because it only props up the system. Not only has this position not been vindicated even once in history--not even once--but it is flatly contradicted by it. When things get worse, they just get worse. People don't become revolutionaries when things are really bad. They are too busy trying to stay alive at that point. Of course, the kinds of people who make up the more-radical-than-thou part of the left tend to be well-educated, and if poor, only so as a lifestyle choice, rather than as a result of systemic oppression. So they won't be the ones impacted most by the kinds of leaders they seem to think will be best, if only because they will highlight for all to see the horrors of the system. It will be someone else who suffers for the fulfillment of their dialectic. How convenient.
And what's especially funny about this "Oh now the libs will all go to sleep and movements will be weaker than ever" routine is that those performing it seem to be suggesting that activism is much bolder and more effective when the enemy is clear. But is that so? Have I missed the ass-kicking that the left has given to Bush these past eight years? Exactly what have we accomplished against this very obvious enemy of the Constitution, and economic justice, and a just foreign policy, which couldn't have been accomplished against, say, Al Gore or John Kerry? Nothing, absolutely nothing. There is virtually nothing on which he has not gotten his way, and none of our epic and redundant (and predictable) antiwar protests have done a thing to change the course of these wars we're in. That Obama may not be pressured any more effectively than W has been (though that remains to be seen) isn't the point. The point is, we haven't built a mass movement in the repressive and reactionary environment that has existed since 2000, so how could it get much worse?
If these barbiturate leftists would take even a momentary glance at history they would notice that the most effective organizing in this country's past occurred in the '30s when a relatively liberal administration was in power, and in the early-to-mid-'60s, when the same thing was true. And why? Because of an uptick in hope, which allowed people to believe that pressure might pay off for once. It's called rising expectations theory: when expectations begin to rise, people become more active, not less so, and even if those expectations are somewhat dashed, this can often lead to positive outcomes, as frustration mounts, the gap between aspiration and ultimate achievement becomes obvious, and folks decide to ratchet up the protest even more than before. This is why the left was stronger in the moderately liberal '60s than the relatively repressive '50s, for instance.
What is most fascinating to me is that the leftists who rail on Obama seem to be making two oddly inconsistent arguments: on the one hand, that Obama is a shill because he doesn't embrace a left agenda, but on the other, that real change comes not from presidents but from the people. The last of these is correct, but to the extent it is, there is no point in making a big deal of Obama's inadequacies. If it's not about him in the first place, then all that remains is for us to get busy, and meet liberal Democrats where they are. Or, we can preen as moral superiors because we've read Bakunin, and Zerzan, and Chomsky, or because we once called a cop a pig to his face in Seattle or some such thing.
Here's something for the Obama-bashers on the left to ponder: old-line civil rights activists (who have put their life on the line for justice far more often than the critics have in most cases) believe Obama's win is meaningful. Many black nationalists and Afrocentric scholars believe it to be meaningful. Radical scholars in the black community think it's significant. Community organizers in oppressed communities, even though they know that the real work is yet to be done, are overwhelmingly saying it matters, all over the country. Perhaps they're all suckers. Perhaps they, and the millions of folks of color in particular who are excited about this moment, are just stupid. Perhaps the Greens are just smarter, perhaps the white radical anarchist or other left collective down the road has figured it all out in ways the silly folks of color just can't manage to accomplish, or perhaps the Revolutionary Communist Party is every bit as brilliant as they believe themselves to be. But I doubt it.
I just wish that I knew what the barbiturate left's strategy was for building the movement. Hell, at this point, I'd be glad just to know what the hell they even think the movement is fighting for. It doesn't appear to me that even this little detail has been figured out yet. And we wonder why the right has been getting the better of us for years?
Some things just aren't that difficult to understand.
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Trying to understand the radical...
Tim, you've become one of my favorite writers. Thank you for what you do.
As one of those Obamabots who is apparently part of the problem (just don't call my proudly un-tatooed self a hipster of any kind, please?), I'm trying to wrap my brain around the criticism of him from the Very Far Left. I see Obama as perhaps the greatest orator and statesman of my generation, and I see his ability to inspire hope as one of his greatest strengths. I have my cynical side, but it doesn't always serve me...and I'm not sure that cynicism will serve our country right now.
Obama probably won't be as progressive as I'd like him to be, but I don't see public policy as a catalog from which I order exactly what I want. I do see, in Obama, a chance to win some ground on issues that I care about (health care, the environment, economic justice.)
Sooo, what am I missing here? The Very Far Left is upset that Obama will not radically upend white male wealth and power? Didja think those guys would go quietly, without a fuss? At least now Obama can walk among them and has some power to sculpt more equality. If Obama were a radical, could he really do that? Would anybody really listen if he or his supporters were annoying, negative, divisive, etc.?
Not One Of Us
JoAnne: I think the point is that Obama is NOT one of us. His teachers thought he may be a conservative. Obama is not there to sculpt equality, he's not there to spread justice, he is just like any other previous candidate.
However, his policy proposals and the people he targets both in elite and popular communities are markedly better than the alternative and even better than many Democratic candidates in recent memory.
But he's one of ME.
Thank you for your comment, Frederic. It's ironic that you say that, because part of why I spent most of election day and the day after in tears was because I feel Obama *is* one us--that is, one of *me.* (And I'm not African-American; I'm white with NA ancestry.) He's not my equal by any means, mind you....but he's a child of divorce, a Gen Xer, someone who had no identity handed to him but had to carve it out for himself. Maybe this, for me, has less to do with politics and more to do with things that transcend politics.
I'm not sure I agree about his conservatism. If he's such a conservative, why did he do community organizing in Chicago rather than work for some corporate law firm?
I respect those who seek to encourage him toward a leftward agenda (which I mostly agree with.) But assuming he is worse than he is won't help the cause, and it diminishes the true orator and statesman that he actually is.
Is He?
"Thank you for your comment, Frederic. It's ironic that you say that, because part of why I spent most of election day and the day after in tears was because I feel Obama *is* one us--that is, one of *me.* (And I'm not African-American; I'm white with NA ancestry.) He's not my equal by any means, mind you....but he's a child of divorce, a Gen Xer, someone who had no identity handed to him but had to carve it out for himself. Maybe this, for me, has less to do with politics and more to do with things that transcend politics."
But you seem to identify POLITICAL claims and proposals that he doesn't actually hold. Check out Chomsky and Achcar's paperback edition of Perilous Power: They have extensive critiques of Obama, ranging from his mainstream, rejectionist stance on the Palestine-Israel conflict to his horrendous stance on Iraq. Paul Street also has been right on about Obama's limitations.
"I'm not sure I agree about his conservatism. If he's such a conservative, why did he do community organizing in Chicago rather than work for some corporate law firm?"
Who knows? By that reasoning, Ralph Nader did no wrong, nor did Jesse Jackson, after they began to run. By that reasoning, Gore was a shining beacon of progressivism in his 2000 run based on what he'd do afterwards in An Inconvenient Truth and Kerry was an idealist anti-war candidate based on his activism when he came home. "Community organizing" is not necessarily progressive or radical, but more importantly the closer people get to the reins of power, the more likely they are to be corporatized. Being a law professor at the school that produced Milton Friedman does not inspire confidence. One need only look at Obama's POLICY proposals. All of them are insufficient or downright repugnant. He calls for people to not support Hamas, for example. Which means he is calling for illegal termination of support to the Palestinian regime, including their own tax monies. He, of course, not calling for the Israelis to renounce violence. Because that'd be silly.
"I respect those who seek to encourage him toward a leftward agenda (which I mostly agree with.) But assuming he is worse than he is won't help the cause, and it diminishes the true orator and statesman that he actually is."
Why?
Why doesn't it help?
Us identifying him as too progressive makes us think that we don't have to work hard. It takes pressure off our choices.
Us identifying him as too conservative causes us to push harder.
The risk of thinking he's a closeted one of us when he clearly is not, and told us as much as he began to move back to the mainstream, and even told us in the Audacity of Hope when he compared a Vietnam veteran to a slave in terms of their audacity to hope (completely eviscerating the reality of those two categories).
So far left, everbody else is right
Frederic, do you remember when you were like 10 years old, and someone who was 20 years old was really OLD? And when you were 20, 30 was ancient? Now that I'm close to 40 years old, 40 doesn't seem old and 50 isn't too scary either. By the same token, when you're that far to the left, even a moderate left person looks conservative.
I have read Obama's platform (though I don't believe I mentioned any specifics here), and I do wish it were more progressive. But the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not even on my radar. On my list of priorities, Israel is somewhere after affordable organic food but before dental hygiene. I know this is an unpopular point of view,especially here, but both Israel and its foes have proven themselves to be foolish and violent, over and over---and so I have little sympathy left either way.
I think I'm not that different from a lot of liberal people I know, Frederic. I worry about health insurance and global warming and most of all, about the economy. How will I afford a mortage? How can I retire someday? What happens when I lose my job? What if I get sick and my health insurance only pays 80%? If Obama gets more people of color and lower-income folks health insurance, isn't that a step toward empowerment? How powerful do you feel when you are sick?
Democrats have spent 8 years mired in negativity--Bush bashing and complaining and gnashing our teeth. (And believe me, I can Bush bash and whine with the best of them). But it got us almost nowhere. Obama offers hope and positivity--and surprise: it got us somewhere.
Rather than bash Obama (please don't make me read Chomsky; that's just cruel), how about capitalizing on his positives and urging him to go further? How about setting him up to win, rather than creating lose-lose scenarios (he's a corporate sell-out if he works for a big law firm AND he's a corporate sell-out in disguse if he does community organizing? Errr, how can he win there?)
I read somewhere that you shouldn't become too intimate with the demons of your heroes. I have so few heroes left. I'd like Obama to remain one of them.
Thank you for the dialogue...you all really make me think.
False Flag
"Frederic, do you remember when you were like 10 years old, and someone who was 20 years old was really OLD? And when you were 20, 30 was ancient? Now that I'm close to 40 years old, 40 doesn't seem old and 50 isn't too scary either. By the same token, when you're that far to the left, even a moderate left person looks conservative."
Not at all.
I was quite excited about the Edwards candidacy. He had some real pro-labor and populist stuff going on. He also lost because of it. I even had respect for McCain pre-batshit-insane-2008 turn, due to things like McCain Feingold. Trust me, someone can be capable of discerning relevant differences and nonetheless not be very excited about Obama's policy choices.
Is Obama a relatively progressive candidate among VIABLE choices? Sure. My impression is that, in most domains, compared to Gore and Kerry Obama is very progressive. And I've consistently said to the "barbiturate left" that Obama's mere progressive INCLINATIONS would be useful, if only because it would hurt his credibility to change his story when he was in office. But the point is that viable choices are by definition not progressive, thanks to the corporatized nature of our elections. Like Tim has said: Did we EXPECT anything different? No. And that's all I'm asking the Left not to do. To take yet MORE issues: Obama is sharply to the right of public opinion on both the issue of Cuba and Iran, and is willing to consider a military option against the Iranians.
"I have read Obama's platform (though I don't believe I mentioned any specifics here), and I do wish it were more progressive. But the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not even on my radar. On my list of priorities, Israel is somewhere after affordable organic food but before dental hygiene. I know this is an unpopular point of view,especially here, but both Israel and its foes have proven themselves to be foolish and violent, over and over---and so I have little sympathy left either way."
Which is irrelevant. We don't back Israel's foes. We back Israel with massive military aid. And we do so in ways that predictably destabilize the region. Were we backing Hezbollah, I'd say the same thing.
Also, one has to ask: WHY are Israel's foes like that? They weren't always, y'know. The Khomeini (who in the 80s the Israelis liked enough to pressure the US to IGNORE the anti-Israel rhetoric of) didn't arise out of nowhere: He came after the US overthrew Mossadeq and put in the Shah. The PLO had many problems, but they were nothing compared to Hamas, the predictable outcome of marginalizing and coopting the PLO. Ditto for Hezbollah: What do you EXPECT when you invade another country? The cycle of violence has a definite source: US action.
But the point was to show how far to the right Obama is.
"I think I'm not that different from a lot of liberal people I know, Frederic. I worry about health insurance and global warming and most of all, about the economy. How will I afford a mortage? How can I retire someday? What happens when I lose my job? What if I get sick and my health insurance only pays 80%? If Obama gets more people of color and lower-income folks health insurance, isn't that a step toward empowerment? How powerful do you feel when you are sick?"
Could be. Could also be a way to placate people. Both can occur. But the point is he's not DOING it to empower you. He's doing it because it helps his true constituency. When it stops doing so, he won't help you anymore.
Also: His opinions there are also highly corporatized and regressive. Remember how he basically had to steal Hillary's health plan, itself deeply flawed?
"Democrats have spent 8 years mired in negativity--Bush bashing and complaining and gnashing our teeth. (And believe me, I can Bush bash and whine with the best of them). But it got us almost nowhere. Obama offers hope and positivity--and surprise: it got us somewhere."
Democrats WON in 2000 and 2004, in a world where votes are counted and a winner is elected in some kind of proportion.
Democrats won in 2006, both officially and actually. Did they turn to hope? No. It was PEOPLE who decided to vote, overwhelmingly AGAINST the Republicans. Obama's rhetoric may have picked up a few percentage points, MAYBE, but I think Edwards or Hillary would have won as well.
Obama's hope may have got people to vote for him, but his hope is NOT our hope and does NOT resonate with our values. Just like any Dem, he will have to be pressured to do the right thing. The point is there's more possibilities, which is of course deeply important.
"Rather than bash Obama (please don't make me read Chomsky; that's just cruel), how about capitalizing on his positives and urging him to go further?"
I don't see why reading Chomsky is cruel :) . This is also Chomsky and Achcar, and it's all very accessible, I think. Yeah, they're dealing with VERY hard issues, but nothing about it is explained poorly.
As far as capitalizing: It depends on what you mean. If you believe that simply ASKING Obama to go further will make him do so, then no, that won't work. But if we FORCE Obama to, then yes. And one way we can do so is to use his own hope and change rhetoric against him, threatening his political credibility. But he is not our ally, he is not our buddy in the White House. One can go down the line with his policy proposals to explain why.
"How about setting him up to win, rather than creating lose-lose scenarios (he's a corporate sell-out if he works for a big law firm AND he's a corporate sell-out in disguse if he does community organizing? Errr, how can he win there?)"
You misquoted me here, rather dishonestly.
If he does community organizing, he may or may not be a sellout. We can't know. Probably not, I'd agree.
When he runs for the Presidency on a platform that demonizes Iran, openly declares contempt for the UN Charter, and is deeply pro-corporate and regressive, THEN he's a sellout.
Edwards was not. There was something really different going on there. Real, pro-labor populism.
I don't care a whit about Obama did anytime before 2008. What I care about is what he SAYS he's going to do, because that's the only way I have of predicting what he'll do. Similarly, Obama being black is of great symbolic importance, but I again found it deeply irrelevant to his merits. The point is that he's not a progressive or radical President. He is, at best, a liberal one. And he is sharply to the right of American opinion at virtually every level.
"I read somewhere that you shouldn't become too intimate with the demons of your heroes. I have so few heroes left. I'd like Obama to remain one of them."
If you want to retain Obama as a hero, go ahead. But if you want to be deluded about what Obama will actually DO, then I'm afraid I can't join that bandwagon.
Tell me: What would he have to do to lose your support? Declare war on Iran? Back out of his socialized health care? Massively increase Pentagon budgets?
Why bother...
Frederic, I would answer that last question if I thought you really cared what the answer was. But you decided long ago that I was simply wrong (even on matters of perception and feeling). So insert your own answer.
You've made, perhaps inadvertently, progress in proving Tim's original point (though I'm sure you'll argue with my perception of that, too.)
Best wishes anyway.
Productive Dialogue?
"Frederic, I would answer that last question if I thought you really cared what the answer was. But you decided long ago that I was simply wrong (even on matters of perception and feeling). So insert your own answer. "
Like I said, you can perceive what you will about him. For example, I never argued that feeling sympathy for a Gen Xer was a bad or misplaced thing. But to argue about the opinions of another person, or predict what they're going to do... that's a factual discussion, and it behooves us to do it properly.
Of course, my opinion or response shouldn't matter, should it? It's a valid question. What would Obama supporters here have to see from their candidate as a distinct sign that he has, in fact, "sold out" or has done something beyond the pale? If there is nothing, then we've moved past the realm of politics and into the realm of cultishness. I think this matters, because while progressive people may very well list left after becoming excited by Obama, personality cults will be just as destructive as when they formed around Bush.
"You've made, perhaps inadvertently, progress in proving Tim's original point (though I'm sure you'll argue with my perception of that, too.)"
Did I?
Not once did I insult you, call you a hipster or anything. I simply disagreed and explained why. Stridently, perhaps, though far less stridently than Tim's original piece that you agreed with.
If Tim's point is that one can't even ARGUE with or disagree with Obama supporters, then Tim's point is BS, to be perfectly frank. Some people will feel dismissed no matter what one does when one disagrees (not saying you are in this category, just noting the phenomenon).
But this isn't Tim's point. Rather, there's additional phenomena, like automatically rejecting Obama supporters' progressive credentials, or saying they're exactly like Bush, or any number of other points. I haven't even allegedly done any of these things...
Best wishes reciprocally, but frankly, I felt we had a productive dialogue and then it was terminated.
Pity
Tim: Pity to hear about you and Paul coming to a head. This is what makes me so angry about the Left: Two white anti-racists, both of whom have counseled the Left against the twin evils of exuberance regarding any presidential candidate and against thinking that there are no differences between systemically-supported options, both of whom have fairly much identical positions, are now calling each other "hypocrites" and "unglued". I was reading Noam Chomsky and Gilbert Achcar's recent dialogue, and what was so impressive to me was that these two guys COULD disagree, even on relatively important issues, and both could honor each others' opinions, commitments, and beliefs, and even concede a point when they felt that their opponent had more hands-on experience in that domain. Even in his most strident critiques of Obama, Paul never forgot that McCain was that much worse. Link to his comment?
To be fair, though, Tim, your initial piece was polemic enough to piss a lot of people off. It's understandable.
I would note that your own '30s example somewhat undermines your point. The '30s activism may have been during a liberal presidency, but it was also during the worst Depression the country had ever seen. And previous upswings in activism in various countries and at times during American history HAVE taken place during awful conditions. The labor wars in the 19th century, for example, took place with quite reactionary and consistent business control. I'd also imagine that slave uprisings didn't have much correlation with who was in charge.
What is quite clear to me, however, is that movement outcomes are correlated NOT to the objective conditions but to the structural behavior of the movement. If things are terrible but the movement does not make it rewarding or sensible to be part of it instead of surviving, of course things will continue to get worse. If things are great but the movement does not make their criticisms clear enough and seem valid enough and achievable enough to engender more activists, then the movement will also fail. If the movement, no matter how bad things are, makes a clear case, makes hope a rallying cry, makes people want to stay and makes it rewarding rather than punishing to do so, then it will succeed.
This means that it is NEVER justifiable, not once, to not make a move based exclusively on how the elites might respond. Yes, voting for Obama might allow elites to argue that everything is hunky-dorey. But voting for McCain would do the same thing. In that instance, elites would argue that the country CLEARLY didn't care enough to vote for the liberal, so they MUST want four more years of the same. No matter what happens, elite institutions, media and candidates will package every event as benefitting them. Reading between the lines tells us the real story. Notice how Obama had to DISTANCE himself from the progressive activists voting him into power. That tells us, given the generally progressive stance of the average American, that Obama was really signalling elites and saying, "I don't believe what these guys say". The elites clearly would have PREFERRED an Obama victory without a progressive movement behind it, or with a sufficiently docile one that could be relied on to follow orders. This one can't.
Making things worse is repugnant, even if one hopes that makes it better. It is wrong on its face. What movements must do is make the best choices they can consider at each moment, constricted by the real opportunities at hand. An Obama victory is a success for the Left. It means that we've managed to do enough of a job of getting the country pissed at what Bush did that both candidates had to distance themselves from the incumbent, a really rare phenomenon.
And, yes, the excitement of very radical people, even people who thought Obama was quite white or talked down to black people, alone proves the above more than anything I could say. If a downtrodden people are excited about a presidential candidate, it's almost guaranteed that something new is happening here.
EDIT: Tim, you should check out Michael Albert's new "Obama Mania". In it, he describes the real impact of the Obama presidency, going so far as to say that the Obama Presidency has really helped do some damage to symptoms of institutional racism and open the door for attack at the root causes! Paul's apparently in his own little corner, because even Michael thinks there is something relevant going on here. A quote: "Leftists of all kinds need to avoid acting as though this election was run of the mill, or especially that those who voted for Obama were deceived or naive, or that those who are elated by seeing him in office are fools.
This election was not run of the mill. This election was, in fact, historic as no other election I have ever encountered, regarding black people's and other minority's hopes and aspirations, regarding the electoral map, regarding escaping Republican nightmares that could have gotten infinitely worse, regarding the possible emergence of young people as an active political and social force, and regarding the coming struggle over whether cynicism will continue to drain activist prospects, or, instead, inspired by rhetoric and excitement and then angered by rejection, masses of people ironically intoning "yes we can" will persevere even against Obama Administration opposition to win what we had hoped to more easily gain."
White Guilt
As a supporter of Barack Obama I must say that when he says that white guilt has largely exhausted itself in America, I have to disagree. White guilt in large part, is what enabled him to excell to the presidency.
Really?
Timothy: Given how poorly he polled among whites, I wonder how you arrive at this conclusion.
Record-setting white support
Obama matched Bill Clinton's high of 43% of white voters, topped Kerry's percentage and was close to the all-time high for a Democratic candidate in Jimmy Carter, who received 47% of the vote, and also won more than 50 percent of the popular vote.
Read Your Numbers Again
Notice what that means.
A minority of white voters voted for him.
NOT a majority.
If white guilt was a major phenomenon, one would imagine it to have propelled it over the top of JIMMY CARTER, right? But apparently not.
Putting that aside, it is flatly idiotic and more than a little bit racist to say that white guilt motivated most of those votes. For one thing, it's empty psychologizing, which even if you had the credentials to do for any one person (and you wouldn't, there IS no such diagnosis as "white guilt"), you sure as hell couldn't do for a group. But for another, it flies in the face of all evidence. Many of these white voters, and even quite a few of the BLACK voters, had to SEE Obama's mettle be proven over and over again in difficult situations. And even THAT was not enough for tens of thousands of whites who voted for Hillary quite explicitly as a vote AGAINST the black man.
Remember the original context. You said that white guilt is what let him excel to the Presidency. But even the WAY this statement is phrased ignores the fact that it was WHITES who were playing catch up to blacks re: voting Obama, and in fact had blacks voted for McCain at the same rate as whites had Obama would have lost by a very large margin. So the formulation itself is a very interesting way of analyzing the numbers.
To take an election that was in large part a referendum on the party of an unimaginably unpopular incumbent, during an economic downturn popularly blamed on the incumbent party, and say that the "large part" of the candidate's victory was due to the dominant group's racial demons is, well, not only mind-boggling but offensive.
I would wonder where this white guilt would come from, given how most whites seem to express that they don't believe that racism exists whatsoever or even that RACE matters. It's especially interesting that white guilt would propel such an outcome for a black President who was quite scrupulous about avoiding bringing up the matter of race whatsoever.
Suffice it to say that most of those who voted for Obama did so out of repulsion for 8 years of Republican policies, or fear of even worse economic times ahead, or hope. It is empty gesturing with no sociological support to say that white guilt made up anything but an insignificant fraction of those motivations.
response?
"Maybe it's my fault. I think I write pretty clearly, but perhaps I don't."
I'm tempted to take you at face value when you say this, but when you end with "Some things just aren't that difficult to understand," that temptation vanishes. What I read (clearly) from your original article, and from this one, is that you've first built a straw person up--the person who claims that there is literally no difference between McCain and Obama, and then you proceed to poison the well by placing lots and lots of people who don't agree with you about hope placed in Obama within that straw person group. Your derision toward this group is displayed quite clearly when you say:
"...to some of those on the left--some of my friends and longtime compatriots in the struggle for social justice--who yet insist that there is no difference between Obama and McCain, between Democrats and Republicans, between Biden and Palin: Screw you. " (from previous post)
You don't say "Here is where I disagree and why." You don't say "I disagree strongly with you." You say "screw you," which is not only an unfortunate use of sexual language as verbal violence, but also is (clearly) intended to shut down conversation, rather than encourage it. Which is what people who don't listen to the criticism of their allies often do, as I'm sure you know from your work regarding racism.
I Disagree
Jeff: Your criticism here would make more sense if the context were different. The people who have been saying there is LITERALLY no difference (and they are out there, on this very blog system, so they are neither strawmen nor well poisoning victims) between any Republican and Democratic candidate have been around for awhile. As he notes, even Paul Street has decided to undermine his previous smart tactical decisions because of how much he dislikes Obama (and I AGREE with Street's estimations of Obama; I just don't think that that makes him identical to McCain). The problem with the people Tim identifies is that they make it very hard for leftists to appeal at all to liberal or progressive people who may turn left if given opportunities after Obama ends up being less impressive than imagined. The "not listening to allies" began on their side, and at some point one HAS to raise the level of the rhetoric. Tim HAS been soft-pedaling for awhile, only to have Paul say that he is coming 'unglued'.
Good Thing Wise Has Somebody Out Here Writing Actual Responses..
...because he doesn't seem to want a conversation.
I appreciate your point of view, Frederic. I disagree with you on a few points, however. First of all, nobody thinks that there is literally no difference between McCain and Obama--if someone thought they were *literally* the same person, then we'd be dealing with somebody who has some trouble with reality. But I'm not just meaning to nitpic language, so I'll go ahead and repeat what I said over on Racialicious, which is where I first saw Wise's post. I think I said it better there:
Wow. First off, I’d ask some questions of somebody who says that there is no difference between Obama and McCain–rather than saying screw you. You seem to be setting up a straw-person; anybody who says there is “no difference” between McCain and Obama, between Dems and Repubs, generally means that there isn’t enough of a difference for them–that Obama and McCain are more similar than most people would like to think–I’d like to have a link to some people who more literally think there is no difference, please, because I haven’t met ‘em.
Obama will be a better president than McCain for progressive and liberation causes. Being happy that Obama, rather than McCain, was elected doesn’t have to mean that we think Obama is different enough from McCain for what we want to get done in the world. And just because some of us don’t want to jump on the happy parade bandwagon, just because some of us can celebrate that we have an african-american president while at the same time lamenting that we have a president that is pro-war, pro-late-term-abortion-ban, pro-patriot act, anti-gay marriage (though he says he’s “open” to having his mind changed), pro-coal, pro-war-on-drugs, pro-death penalty. That Obama is similarly-minded to McCain on many of these issues matters to me enough to bring up the idea that those who look at presidential (and other) politics as a dichotomy (Dems vs. Repubs) are missing important pieces of the big picture.
(Oh, and I don’t appreciate the sex-negative “screw you” as a feminist man who tries to avoid using sex as a weapon.)
They ARE Out There
"Wow. First off, I’d ask some questions of somebody who says that there is no difference between Obama and McCain–rather than saying screw you. You seem to be setting up a straw-person; anybody who says there is “no difference” between McCain and Obama, between Dems and Repubs, generally means that there isn’t enough of a difference for them–that Obama and McCain are more similar than most people would like to think–I’d like to have a link to some people who more literally think there is no difference, please, because I haven’t met ‘em."
"Not A Dime's Worth of Difference" is the polemic used. Polemically, these people DO say there is no difference. After some discussion, they may be willing to admit a few policy differentials.
What they don't ever admit is the IMPORTANCE of these policy differentials. Yes, Obama's health care program is likely to be very limited and not a revolutionary ideology. This is true. It may even coopt some of the working class and buy them off. But this is NOT the same as there being no difference; millions of lives may be saved or made drastically easier by even subtle differences like that.
THAT'S where the real disagreement is. Do things that help millions of people, even if marginally (but marginal is enough in their situation to be a lifesaver), MATTER? This is where the criticisms are quite valid: It is deeply cynical and even a little monstrous to deny otherwise.
"Obama will be a better president than McCain for progressive and liberation causes. Being happy that Obama, rather than McCain, was elected doesn’t have to mean that we think Obama is different enough from McCain for what we want to get done in the world. And just because some of us don’t want to jump on the happy parade bandwagon, just because some of us can celebrate that we have an african-american president while at the same time lamenting that we have a president that is pro-war, pro-late-term-abortion-ban, pro-patriot act, anti-gay marriage (though he says he’s “open” to having his mind changed), pro-coal, pro-war-on-drugs, pro-death penalty. That Obama is similarly-minded to McCain on many of these issues matters to me enough to bring up the idea that those who look at presidential (and other) politics as a dichotomy (Dems vs. Repubs) are missing important pieces of the big picture."
But that's not what Tim is arguing against.
Clearly they're not dichotomous. Tim of all people would know that.
But there are people, like Street, who argue something much more pernicious: That the "better president..." part doesn't matter. And this is especially bizarre from Street since he has repeatedly defended tactical voting in other contexts, even for Presidents much less progressive than Obama. I even AGREE with his very low estimations of Obama but still think it matters that he was elected above McCain. Trust me, those folks are out there.True, they tend to be fairly marginal Marxists, but I've had plenty of arguments on Z Blogs about voting even being a good idea! Apparently voting legitimizes the system or some crap. (Never mind that not voting does the same thing...)
Also, what's wrong about pro-coal? It's not like coal is that much worse than nuclear power. These are hard decisions.
And if by late term we mean third trimester, I actually agree with that stand. I think that Blackmun's compromise, where the third trimester is where the federal government gets a compelling interest in being able to regulate and the second trimester allows state variation, is a reasonable one.
"(Oh, and I don’t appreciate the sex-negative “screw you” as a feminist man who tries to avoid using sex as a weapon.)"
I just don't see this, sorry. I'm a feminist male too, and I can see the contexts where "Screw you" or "bitch" or what not can be sexist, but this just isn't it...
really?
"Trust me, those folks are out there.True, they tend to be fairly marginal Marxists..."
I don't doubt that there are a few "marginal Marxists" out there who think along the lines you're spelling out (though those lines, to be fair, are much more filled-out by you than they were by Wise in his original post). Do those few people warrant the orginal post? Are they really who Wise is talking to? Seems to me he's trying to address a large block of people when he says:
"And before detailing what I perceive that meaning to be (both its expansiveness and limitations) let me say this, to some of those on the left--some of my friends and longtime compatriots in the struggle for social justice--who yet insist that there is no difference between Obama and McCain, between Democrats and Republicans, between Biden and Palin: Screw you."
...is he talking about a few marginal Marxists? Sounds to me like he's trying to stem a tide--a tide that doesn't exist. Yes, there are those of us who are much more pessimistic about Obama than either you or Wise are--I still think Wise is lumping us together with the "marginal Marxists," poisoning the well. You do it too, when you say " It is deeply cynical and even a little monstrous to deny otherwise," ignoring the fact that I may well understand and acknowledge that Obama will make a better president than McCain (as I said, as you said, as Wise said), while still remaining deeply skeptical of the degree of difference.
Imagine for a moment that Bush Jr. were running against McCain for the presidency. I am pretty sure that millions of people would be better off with McCain in the white house (vs. Bush Jr.), but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be ready to throw up my hands and announce that there isn't much of a difference that makes a difference, and put forward that we ought to expect and demand more of a change BEFORE we get all ga-ga over McCain...so to speak.
It seems to me that having some people who are acting as gadflies regarding the drummed up excitement about Obama (the historic election notwithstanding) is healthy to intellectual discourse, and to the project of moving this country into a progressive era--and these people, even the 'marginal marxists' deserve more than a 'screw you'.
Regarding sex-negative language: It's not that "screw you" is sexist, imho--it's that using sexual terms as negative terms has its history in misogyny, and I think it ought to be avoided. I also understand this isn't even the common feminist position any longer.
Gadflies In The Ointment?
"I don't doubt that there are a few "marginal Marxists" out there who think along the lines you're spelling out (though those lines, to be fair, are much more filled-out by you than they were by Wise in his original post). Do those few people warrant the orginal post? Are they really who Wise is talking to? Seems to me he's trying to address a large block of people when he says:"
Yeah, that is the kind of people he's referring to. Remember that these are the type of folk to post at Z Net and Counterpunch. Now I'd say the groups is larger than just literally Marxists, including some people who take Zinn a bit too far, but that's the sort of crowd.
"...is he talking about a few marginal Marxists? Sounds to me like he's trying to stem a tide--a tide that doesn't exist. Yes, there are those of us who are much more pessimistic about Obama than either you or Wise are--I still think Wise is lumping us together with the "marginal Marxists," poisoning the well. You do it too, when you say " It is deeply cynical and even a little monstrous to deny otherwise," ignoring the fact that I may well understand and acknowledge that Obama will make a better president than McCain (as I said, as you said, as Wise said), while still remaining deeply skeptical of the degree of difference. "
But I made clear that I wasn't speaking to your position. Your haste to lump everyone as poisoning the well might be indicative, non? I have no problem with disagreement about the range on Obama's differences. In fact, I myself think that Obama is far to the right of Americans on many issues and has many straight-out reactionary, corporate and regressive policies. But it IS repugnant and steeped in white privilege to deny the small differences and their importance.
Trust me that there are many on the Left, proper, who engage in this sort of thing. Like I mentioned, Paul Street has been peddling this line, not just on Z but also on the Black Agenda Report and elsewhere. Many people resonate with these views and have called Tim Wise white and so forth as a way to discredit him. So there IS a tide, even if by the very nature of the Left it's a pretty small one objectively. Doesn't mean it isn't important: The very fact that we're so small is a reason to watch out for a few crackpots.
"Imagine for a moment that Bush Jr. were running against McCain for the presidency. I am pretty sure that millions of people would be better off with McCain in the white house (vs. Bush Jr.), but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be ready to throw up my hands and announce that there isn't much of a difference that makes a difference, and put forward that we ought to expect and demand more of a change BEFORE we get all ga-ga over McCain...so to speak."
But the difference is larger than that. McCain was largely re-running all of Bush's plans. Obama is a different part of the investor coalition.
I don't think we should go ga-ga over Obama. I was deeply uninspired by him and while I was excited by his election, it was simply due to the symbolic importance of the nation electing a black man and the sign of a sea change that the Republicans weren't getting away with it anymore. These are important phenomena, but superficial.
And we don't need to wait to see what Obama is going to do. Unless he breaks with every campaign promise he made and begins walking around the White House with an anarchy arm band, we know that he is going to be deeply unsatisfactory and we must immediately begin criticizing, moving and protesting. Tim pointed this out in the original piece, saying that maybe after a week, two weeks at the most, we need to get back to work and stop celebrating.
" It seems to me that having some people who are acting as gadflies regarding the drummed up excitement about Obama (the historic election notwithstanding) is healthy to intellectual discourse, and to the project of moving this country into a progressive era--and these people, even the 'marginal marxists' deserve more than a 'screw you'."
Not if they've already lowered the level of discourse. Remember that Paul and Tim are both white anti-racists with very similar interests and focuses. Tim has not mentioned Paul whatsoever, yet Paul has called Tim "unglued" and made MONSTROUSLY inappropriate arguments out of context. To whit: Paul alleged that Tim was calling white women in general racist for not voting for Obama. But that's not what Tim said. Tim said that he thought it was racist and steeped in white privilege for Hillary supporters to decide to vote McCain instead of, say, Cynthia McKinnon. This is NOT the same argument, and whatever you think about it is nowhere near as offensive.
Gadflies are fine. When Paul was acting in that capacity, I was cheering him on and applauding. But it is one thing to be a gadfly and another to suck all hope and interest, to imply that people who voted for Obama are fools, and to attack allies who have different levels of optimism about Obama than you. I have already on this forum angered an Obama supporter by suggesting that her hero may not be all that he's cracked up to be. I did this respectfully and with understanding for her viewpoint. So even reasonable attempts to reach out to people and explain our position about Obama can cause conflict. Paul's acerbic attitude is just out of place here.
" Regarding sex-negative language: It's not that "screw you" is sexist, imho--it's that using sexual terms as negative terms has its history in misogyny, and I think it ought to be avoided. I also understand this isn't even the common feminist position any longer. "
Yeah, swear words across the planet even in very equal or matriarchal societies usually are drawn from sexual and excratory processes. I don't buy that.
Just clarifying
Just to clarify (and hopefully not interrupt)...I wasn't angry; just annoyed. This happens when I feel like I'm not being heard. And I don't think I was heard, Frederic. I don't think you do understand what Obama means to me (and I'm not alone.) For me, he's not a tool to advance the progressive agenda (that he will do so, to an extent, is frosting on the cake.) To me, he's a huge blow against white hegemony, a fellow Gen Xer, an orator, a statesman, an intellectual with a heart, an academic without pretensions. His election was a startling and moving expression of the triumph of good vs. evil, of hope vs. fear. I never thought I would see good triumph in this spectacular a way in my lifetime.
I look at him and his family, and I see, for the first time, someone who is NOT of another generation and another time---but of MY time and MY generation. It feels like an odd validation of so much of what I've experienced in my life. I had to carve out my own identity, too. This is no easy journey. To see someone else whose journey was similar (and I mean spiritually, really) overcome it and become president is powerful.
I cried for two days, Frederic. I was full-out sobbing during his acceptance speech. I still get teary when I think of him being our president. For God's sake--he's not a frigging white baby boomer, and he's now the leader of the free world! This hasn't stopped feeling remarkable and beautiful to me. Maybe it never will.
You can ridicule or argue against or simply disrespect all of the above as much as you like. It won't change anything for me. I am trying to give the barbiturate left an idea of what they are sneering about. But it feels like it's to no avail.
Urge him to whatever policies you believe in, as is your right. But consider what put him there in the first place. It wasn't the radicals.
Collapsed
"Just to clarify (and hopefully not interrupt)...I wasn't angry; just annoyed. This happens when I feel like I'm not being heard. And I don't think I was heard, Frederic. I don't think you do understand what Obama means to me (and I'm not alone.) For me, he's not a tool to advance the progressive agenda (that he will do so, to an extent, is frosting on the cake.) To me, he's a huge blow against white hegemony, a fellow Gen Xer, an orator, a statesman, an intellectual with a heart, an academic without pretensions. His election was a startling and moving expression of the triumph of good vs. evil, of hope vs. fear. I never thought I would see good triumph in this spectacular a way in my lifetime."
I understand your feeling there. I simply don't buy it. There is no reason to believe it, except for the fact that his Presidency IS a huge blow against white hegemony. A man who can defend the occupation of Palestine, the war against Vietnam, and an economic system killing millions is not an intellectual with heart.
But my point is that whatever HIS merits as a man are are irrelevant to me and are irrelevant to policy. Like him, hate him, do whatever, but don't let more Iraqis die.
Incidentally, why shouldn't I be annoyed that my view that he's not even going to advance a progressive agenda has received no serious reply from you? Good for the goose...
"I look at him and his family, and I see, for the first time, someone who is NOT of another generation and another time---but of MY time and MY generation. It feels like an odd validation of so much of what I've experienced in my life. I had to carve out my own identity, too. This is no easy journey. To see someone else whose journey was similar (and I mean spiritually, really) overcome it and become president is powerful."
That's fair enough, but because he is of your generation and went through similar experiences he will automatically be a good President? Plenty of gen Xers are Republicans; I bet some are KKK members. People should be evaluated on what they DO, not who they are or where they came from.
"You can ridicule or argue against or simply disrespect all of the above as much as you like. It won't change anything for me. I am trying to give the barbiturate left an idea of what they are sneering about. But it feels like it's to no avail."
Your emotions are your own. But while I was quite happy to see the man in office, I am perfectly aware that he is not the President other folks are thinking he will be.
The problem is that you have expressed no reciprocity. You may identify with the man. Now it's your turn to listen to what you consider the "barbiturate left" is actually saying: That he will be a bad President who will kill many Iraqis and Americans. If your hero worship gets in the way of stopping him or mitigating those atrocities, then there IS a problem, and I think it shows respect to attempt to explain that problem rather than just dismissing you out of hand. If you disagree, explain why. Don't simply say that you personally identify with the man and are inspired by his victory.
"Urge him to whatever policies you believe in, as is your right. But consider what put him there in the first place. It wasn't the radicals."
So what?
Bush didn't get put there by the radicals either, doesn't make him a good President.
The fact that Obama is far to the right of the people who elected him and the rest of American society shows only that the American political system has collapsed. It says nothing about the salience or popularity of progressive or left views.
Of course they aren't hard
Of course they aren't hard to use. Actually, it is normal for a citizen to know something about the history of his country. It is a shame to be asked about an important moment of the history of your country and not saying a thing.
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